Ep.53: The Truth About Scoring Your OKRs | Tim Meinhardt, CEO of Atruity

053: The Truth About Scoring Your OKRs | Tim Meinhardt, CEO of Atruity

In this episode of the OKRs Q&A Podcast, we will be switching things up a bit. Instead of Tim hosting, Stephanie Meinhardt—the Director of Business Development for Atruity—will be hosting and interviewing Tim instead. Stephanie and Tim discuss scoring, its real meaning, why it is so important to the OKR process, how it connects to performance management, its benefits, and its misconceptions. Scoring may seem simple (and it is), but it is an incredibly crucial and complex part of the OKR process.

As the President and CEO of Atruity, Tim is at the forefront of providing Objectives and Key Results implementation to enterprises. A successful entrepreneur, Tim has over 17 years of consulting experience, as well as expertise in operating and growing organizations. With Atruity, he is directly involved in mentoring and running OKR programs for organizations with a combined annual revenue exceeding $7 billion.   

Tim Meinhardt:

Welcome everyone to another exciting episode of the OKRs Q&A podcast, also known as the OKR Corral, where OKR insight is the king. I’m your host, Tim Meinhardt, president and CEO of Atruity, an OKR consultancy headquartered in our nation’s capital.

Before we begin, if you’re an OKR fan and enjoy our podcast, please subscribe, leave a review, and explore our website at www.atruity1.com. And finally, should you have a burning question you’d like addressed in future episodes, please drop us a note at contact@atruity1.com. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

So today on the OKRs Q&A podcast, we’re going to be switching things up a bit. Instead of Tim hosting, I, Stephanie Meinhardt, will be hosting and interviewing Tim instead. For those who don’t know me, I am the director of business development for Atruity. And just like Tim, I’m incredibly passionate about the OKR methodology as well. In this episode, we’re going to be discussing scoring. Scoring is a simple but incredibly crucial aspect of OKRs. Today we’re going to be covering its real meaning, why it is so important to the OKR process, the benefits of scoring, and the misconceptions surrounding it. So let’s dive in. 

Hi, Tim, thanks for letting me host this week. Is it weird for you to be on the other side? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Well, it is. But I am excited to talk about this topic because it comes up a lot and I don’t know sometimes if there’s any true hard and fast right answers here, but I’d love to be able to share with everybody once we get started a little bit about my philosophy on scoring.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Well, I think our audience is gonna get a lot out of this conversation. And I think the best part about this episode is that we not only get to hear your view on scoring, but we actually get to listen to you, the host, discuss some of your favorite topics, so I am so excited to start. And on that note, let’s jump in. So Tim, can you define scoring for us and what scoring really means when using Objectives and Key Results? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Sure, thank you. So scoring; I think the best way to say it is we all keep score, all right? And scoring is a method by which we can determine how well we did as it relates to how our goals were accomplished over a given period of time.  And I want to take a step back for a second and say, you know, OKRs in its simplest state is a goal-setting management system. So if you think about setting a goal and then measuring, you’re measuring “How are you doing against that goal?” Now I actually believe that in scoring, you keep scoring dynamically. So every two weeks, or every week, whenever you meet with a group, you want to be able to keep up your score. How are you actually doing things? But it’s a confidence level on how well you think you’re going to do by the end of the quarter. So “I am 70% confident.” “Hey, I’m only 50% confident.” “I took a big shot on something here and we’re really trying hard, but I’m still 50/50 on it.” “Hey, I’m 60% happy with it.” And so that’s one way to look at scoring, as a confidence level. 

There is another way to look at it, and some organizations do it like this. Well, how close are you to your intended key result? Are you halfway there? At one point, did we start at zero? And we started everybody in the red, and as you moved forward, you can then say, “Well, I’m 30%, up 40%. Hey, I’m 50, 60, 70, 80, 90% have actually accomplished that goal over particular quarter.” What’s really nice is, you know, most of the OKR software on the marketplace today allows for this to take place, whether you want it to be as simple as green being good, yellow means, “Hey, I’ve got a small concern,” or red “Hey, I’m being challenged with this particular key result.” Or you can have something that says, “Hey, we want to attach a percentage to those particular colors.” 

And then the third way of also doing it is, “Hey, I want to be more specific and I want to be able to actually track incrementally how we’re doing, not only maybe as a team, but also as a set of teams toward a particular quarterly objective that the organization is trying to accomplish.” So, you know, scoring is what it is. It’s what you feel comfortable with and how and what you want to challenge your team with, because at the end of the day, it’s really about what you accomplish. And that’s really what OKRs are all about. Scoring is a means to an end that allows people to better understand how they are doing with their key results for that given period of time, whether it’s a quarter or a year. 

Now there is another key component to scoring that I’d really like to talk about, and this is this concept of reflection. Okay, look, everyone, when you set a personal goal, you reflect on how well you’re doing, how committed you are to it. Gosh, it’s really difficult when there’s a discipline here, when you go, “I bit off maybe more than I could chew,” or “I’m really, really driven and I’m going to make this happen.” So when we get closer to the end of the quarter, there’s this reflection period that takes place as well. And so when you look at scoring, it’s an excellent place to begin to look at reflection, okay? It’s an excellent place in the middle to be working with someone that you’re either reporting to or reporting to you on how well we’re doing things. But when it gets to the end, it’s about reflection and looking at your key results and asking yourself, “How did I do? Did I set it too high? Did I set it maybe too low? Here’s one that I actually set the right particular metric.” That one is as much as anything, “Did we set the right one; did we set it too high, did we set it too low? Can we look at that a little bit differently? Did it help us in actually accomplishing our objective—which is really what we’re all after—is, how do we accomplish those big, audacious goals?” So, you know, when you start looking at scoring, you start digging into all the nuances there.

So there’s a whole lot there. And I like to start with, “Hey, we all keep score.” So maybe the best way to say it, Stephanie, is we all keep score and it’s just how you want it to define the scoring and what it is that you want on it. I honestly believe that you want a great reflection, okay, and that you want to be able to understand how well you’re doing against the goals that you have set. Or, I will say collectively, have been set by the organization over a given period of time.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Oh my gosh, I feel like you just said so many amazing things that I want to break down. First thing that you said that I really resonated with was you said it was dynamic. Continue to score every week or every two weeks; I think a lot of people, when they think of scoring, they go, okay, I’ll just score at the end of the quarter, I’ll just score when it’s done. But when you keep scoring dynamically, you get a real time view of what’s really happening in your organization, and it’s something that if you’re not doing already, you should start doing right now. Something else really powerful that you talked about was how scoring is really individual to an organization. So if an organization wants to keep score as “five out of ten means that they’re 50% there,” or “five out of ten means that I am 50% sure I’m going to hit this,” it’s really giving people this room to make it their own for their organization. Okay, Tim, next question. What is the main reason that organizations need to score? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Another great question. And let me start by saying it this way that, you know, leaders of organizations, they love to be able to get rid of impediments that are causing people not to be able to hit the things that they’ve set out to accomplish. And so, when you look at the need for scoring, it also brings into focus another particular aspect, which I will call performance management of sorts. Now there has been a lot of discussion, and again, I think some of this is just like whether, you know, it’s tomato, tomato, whether you like apple pie or you’d like, you know, rhubarb pie or banana cream pie—it’s all a little bit different, but the pie is the same.

And so, what organizations do with scoring is it allows for them to have this continuous communication, feedback, and recognition. And those are big deals, okay? Let’s face it, that if we’ve set out things and we’re accomplishing things, nothing—nothing—makes anybody feel any better than recognizing their wins—that’s what keeps people motivated. So intrinsically motivated by yourself is one thing—having your peers recognize that you’re doing a great job is another thing. And you know, we score, and we score in public—which is really, really difficult sometimes to get your arms around. In fact, you’re now putting your best efforts in front of everyone that’s involved in the OKR program. Elizabeth Dunne, who we did on an earlier podcast, said that it was very intimidating for her at first and it is, because suddenly, like people get to know what’s going on with you, how well are you actually doing on things? So they’re looking at your score as well. 

You know, we have a phrase that we use and you’ve heard me share it before, which is called “cupcaking”. Okay, now I use the term cupcaking for one particular reason, because people are fearful of setting out a target, initially, that’s too far of a stretch. So they’d rather set something mild that they know they can hit, okay—they know they’re going to be able to hit this. And you know what they’re going to get? They’re going to get green. They’re going to look great in front of everybody. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Everyone’s favorite color.

Tim Meinhardt:

It’s fabulous—look how good they’re doing. Yeah, green is my favorite color. I’m a perfect ten. So I think that when you start looking at the reasons that they score, I think it’s better to look at how well are you doing, how well did you stretch? So that constancy of communication, which again, you know, in today’s world, we love to be able to get on Slack, we love to be able to get on texting, emailing, you name it. There are so many different ways for us to communicate, but sometimes that ability, and today, obviously with COVID, we all have Zoom fatigue or whatever you want to call it, some type of video fatigue, but that constant feedback and recognition and understanding of what’s going on and being able to relay back to the person you’re either reporting to or people that are reporting to you, how well we’re doing, okay, is part of the scoring, what I’ll call “scoring psyche.” But let’s not forget, it keeps people motivated because if you’re close and you can really hit that stretch, you want to you want to scream from the rooftops “I did it!” And you want to be recognized by all the people that are involved in that program that, “Hey, we did it! We accomplished something. We innovated something. We changed something. We took a heck of a risk and we did great!”

The other thing that I like about scoring and why an organization does this, is it’s inevitably true that nobody that does their key results isn’t somehow, someway, inextricably tied to somebody else’s key results, okay. So there’s a lot of reliance on other people. So you get this sense of community that, “Hey, I need a little bit of help,” or “Hey, I’m going to help that person or this particular area” because we’re all for the greater good and seeing those scores rise, and ultimately executing as an organization because you’re a team of teams. And I think that’s so important. So I think that’s really why, Stephanie, people would love to be able to know why organizations need to keep score. And again, I want to reemphasize one point. It’s not about compensation, and I know we’ll probably talk maybe even a little more about this. And you know, I believe performance management matters. Rather than measuring someone’s results on the key results that through the continuous feedback, okay, and recognition, that that’s where you’re going to find out whether that person is really doing what they can and they want to accomplish for your organization.

Before we continue with the interview, we’d like to tell you a little bit about Atruity. 

Voiceover:

At Atruity we understand the challenge of implementing a successful OKR program. While the methodology may be straightforward and easy to understand, the implementation and execution of the program can seem daunting. Your team is concerned because you’re unsure how to properly implement or manage your OKR program. You are not alone. This is where Atruity comes in. We know how to implement an OKR program, and are experts in OKR implementation and management. By using our proven methods and implementation structure, we can help you successfully implement OKRs within your organization in as little as 30 days. If your organization is considering implementing OKRs or struggling with the management of the program, do not hesitate to reach out to us at contact@atruity1.com. Remember, no plan succeeds on its own—execution is everything. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

I totally agree, I think the communication, feedback, and recognition piece of OKRs is very underrated and not discussed enough, and it’s so incredibly important with scoring, so I’m so happy you brought that up and I’m so happy that we could discuss CFRs on today’s podcast.

Tim Meinhardt:

Yeah. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

So when it comes to benefits, what benefits does scoring provide to an organization as a whole? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Well, I think first and foremost in a very esoteric way, this is a social contract among everybody. And in a public setting, there is a little bit of peer pressure, let’s be honest. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

No, there is.

Tim Meinhardt:

You put something out there, you’ve got to bring it home. You have to do it. So the benefit to the organization as a whole is I think that there’s nowhere to hide and sometimes it’s a little bit intimidating, but I think from the organization’s perspective that a little bit of peer pressure, I think, really helps an organization strive to be their best because, you know, being your best is part of making the organization be the best that they can be. I’m a big believer in enabling employees and empowering employees to be their best, to make those bold suggestions, to do the things that they didn’t think they could do. And having part of leadership’s position is to get rid of the obstacles, or help them deal with the obstacles, so that they can really accomplish things that they really set out and said, “We’re going to take a leap here and we’re going to go like gangbusters for this period of time and try to get something accomplished.” And again, I think I’ll go back to the simple things that we talked before, is that I think that feedback, and the communication, and the recognition ultimately get better results. And, you know, I’m struck by this conversation I actually had this morning with somebody that asked me, you know, “What else—what do OKRs do for an organization?” I said, “Well, first and foremost, think of it for a second how wonderful it would be to have your entire organization aligned, and focused on exactly the things that the organization felt was most important.” That’s a big lift. And when you have that, okay, what does that do? Well now let’s look at it in the reverse? What if you didn’t have organization and alignment? And you have people doing busy work all day long and going, “Gosh, I’m really getting a lot done,” and yet you’re going nowhere. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Right, it’s not moving the needle.

Tim Meinhardt:

Right, it’s not moving the needle. It can be moving the hamster mill—you know, moving the hamster along in his little toy, but it’s not getting you to where you really want to get to—what the organization really wants from its efforts, because, you know, we’ve talked about this at great length that, you know, it all starts with a good mission statement and understanding of what your mission and vision are. If you want to put some values in there—absolutely, it helps draw up culture. But it’s that high level North Star that begins to drive what comes next, which are those long term objectives. 

Now, long term objectives are things that are three years or more out that your organization wants to do. Well those North stars—the mission, vision, and values, and long term objectives begin to make, okay, what you’re doing this year much more meaningful, okay, and then what are we doing this quarter much more meaningful. And so, you know, when you look at scoring, how are we doing? Is allowing an organization overall to really get a pulse of how well they’re actually doing this particular quarter? And you know, I was struck by a conversation I had with a gentleman named Evan Campbell at Gtmhub, and I love Evan, and he is a fabulous, fabulous consultant with a digital hub, and he provided us with a tool. And I didn’t understand that at first and at the more we talked, he said, “Tim, it’s about how your overall organization can execute,” which really struck me because you’re going to find out through scoring how well your organization executes, and is there something intrinsically that’s not there that needs to be there in order for your organization to execute? All the best strategy in the world—everything that you’ve set out to accomplish—if you can’t actually execute on that strategy, that doesn’t prove well for your organization over not only a short term, but the long term. So it’s that feedback, remaining engaged, recognizing keeping the motivation that really does and provides the benefits for an organization as a whole.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

I think what you said about scoring and execution is so powerful, so I want to repeat it. Scoring is there to show you how well your organization is executing.

Tim Meinhardt:

 Right.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

It’s so powerful because if you are not executing, then what are you doing? What are you doing? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Well, it speaks to that. And then what? So then what is there that is causing us not to be able to execute? 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Exactly. 

Tim Meinhardt:

And as leaders of an organization, you need to determine what those are, so that you can effectively make sure that those things are mitigated, okay, so that the execution can be given its best chance to be able to succeed. And I think that’s where when it comes to scoring, you’ll get a better understanding of that. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

It reminds me of—and I’m visualizing this—so if you’re a visual person, you’ll enjoy this. If you’re looking down the road and you see roadblocks everywhere, and unless you’re scoring and reflecting on what you’re doing, you may not even realize that there are roadblocks there from getting from point A to point B. So if you’re not scoring and getting rid of those roadblocks, and figuring out what’s challenging people and why they’re not getting certain key results done, then you’re not going to get from point A to point B, or it’s going to take a very long time to get there. 

Tim Meinhardt:

I couldn’t agree more. And I think there’s one other point here that I think I want to be able to let our audience know about, which is really about understanding the scoring. So again, if you’re really stretching for something, okay, your score may not be as high, okay, but it’s getting that whole organization to push, okay? And what I mean by push, it’s really “I set my limits higher than I thought I could go.” You know, we talk about a good key result should frighten you a little bit, but excite you a lot. So it’s that ability to push in front of your peers, and if you only get so far, it’s okay. And I think that’s that culture of knowing that scoring is important, but it’s not there to be judgmental. It’s there to help, and it’s there to allow people to reflect on how to do things even better as they continue to move forward.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Yes, yes, yes. I think that was so incredible what you just said. I think that should be underlined. Bolded, italicize, whatever you want to do when you’re taking your notes, please do it. So what do you think are the biggest misconceptions when it comes to scoring?

Tim Meinhardt:

Wow, I will tell you that I don’t think… Well, let me rephrase that, I think what’s really important to understand is what it is that we’re attempting to do. So this is all about accomplishment. As Andy Grove once put it, “It’s either you did it or you didn’t do it.” And so that’s what we’re trying to drive, is accomplishment, okay? And so you kind of look at it from that way. So then you start looking at, “Well, how are we scoring, and does it help us with that one issue which is accomplishing what it is that we didn’t think we would ever be able to accomplish and pushing ourselves a little bit?” So, you know, we mentioned a little bit about compensation. And I think if your organization is using objectives and key results for compensation, please don’t. I really think that you’re hurting many facets of what OKRs bring to the table, which is, you know, that ability to go after a goal. You know, I don’t know how many times I myself have set a personal goal that I want to lose some weight. And yet you go over a certain period of time and it didn’t happen, okay? And I don’t want to lose, something that’s of value to me just because I couldn’t get something done. But I don’t think you should be judged on it. We have KPIs, we have MBOs, and OKRs work symbiotically with those because those are essentially what I would call a lagging indicator—things that have already happened. Remember, OKRs are about what we are doing, okay, what we’re pushing towards, where a KPI is what’s already happened. So let’s not put scoring into the OKR category. And so I think that’s really probably one of the largest misconceptions. And then I think to remember it is about goal setting, okay. So if you’re focused on everybody getting green, no one’s going to take a shot. So you want people to take shots. You want people to really say…gosh, I was in a discussion just the other day about this, where a large, large organization said, “Gosh, you know, I love these key results that we’re doing, but I don’t know how we’re going to get there. And you know, I’ve got to think this through.” And if you could just tell that hesitation of, “Well, unless I know exactly how I’m going to get there, I don’t want to put something out there and then us have to figure it out.” But that’s the beauty of it. The beauty of it is figuring it out along the way. Well, let’s set that goal, and then what do I have to do to make that happen? And so, those are the biggest misconceptions, I think is, you know, wanting to get all greens—and who doesn’t? Who doesn’t want to look great among their peers. But at the same time, you have to understand that you want to be able to create a culture where everyone can take some risk and they’re not being judgmental on the score. Scoring is there to be able to find out how well you’re doing against what you really thought you wanted to accomplish. So that and I think compensation is what really makes it difficult. And I would highly recommend that you don’t attribute compensation to the OKRs, but rather what I said earlier in the discussion was, you know—performance management is about having that consistent communication, feedback, and recognition. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

You know, I love what you said about the journey. I think the journey is so important when you’re doing anything new and OKRs are no different from doing anything new that you’ve never tried. It’s uncomfortable. It takes risks. You’re not going to know what you’re doing, maybe the first or second quarter. You’re going to be trying your hardest. You may cupcake it. You may completely overshoot. But this idea of a journey—of trying new things, of getting uncomfortable, of getting your hands dirty in this is what’s going to lead to growth, not just with yourself, but within your organization. And the more you can embrace the fact that you’re not going to be amazing at it the first time you do it, the less scary it becomes and the more likely you are to go, “You know what? I’m gonna shoot my shot.”

Tim Meinhardt:

 Yeah, well said. You know, we preach this—that it’s going to be a little clumsy at first. It’s hard to get that goal-setting muscle down-pat. We’re so used, in business, to reporting. [Crosstalk 00:26:53] But to have to use that goal-setting muscle is a little different. So again, part of the reflection is, did we get it right? You know, did we not stretch? Were we being honest with ourselves? Could we have done a little bit more, a little bit better? So you’re right, Stephanie, and we learn how to do that through what we call the OKR journey. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Yep. And one of the biggest things we talk about at Atruity is something that we always talk to our clients about is that we’re here for the journey. That’s our biggest role with you; is to take you through the journey and be your guide on the journey. Because if you don’t have a guide, it is so scary sometimes to be doing something so completely different than anything that you’ve ever been used to before. Exactly what you were saying with KPIs and MBOs, people are used to lagging indicators. They’re not used to goal management and goal setting in front of the entire company and really reaching for the stars. It’s really different than what people are used to, but it’s really incredible at the same time. 

Tim Meinhardt:

Yeah, no, it is. And I tell people that, you know, with focus—with alignment and focus—great things do happen; you just have to give it a chance and like I said, what’s the opposite of that? 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Right?

Tim Meinhardt:

You’re not focused, or you’re not aligned and you’re unfocused.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Well, who wants that? 

Tim Meinhardt:

So I think you’re right there.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

For sure. Well, we talked a little bit about, in the last question, performance management, and I want to jump to that topic. So how do you relate performance management and objectives and key results? 

Tim Meinhardt:

Well, I think I’ve mentioned it a few times today, and I’ll keep my answer relatively short and crisp. I do believe that performance management is something that’s ongoing and it happens through consistent communication. And I think that’s where you get that feedback that, you know, the reassurance and the challenges that people are facing, that in order for them to make those accomplishments, I think you get a lot of information by having those discussions, whether again, whether it’s on the phone—I mean, yes, you can do it on an online medium, but I think sometimes it’s better just to talk one on one to people. And I think that’s where you derive your performance management. And like I said, I think they do go somewhat hand-in-hand with your objectives and key results, which again, this is what you’re discussing, this is what it is that we wanted to accomplish. And then how are we going about accomplishing that? And how well are we going about accomplishing those things that we thought were critically important to drive us to that particular objective?

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Now, I think that was a great answer. And like you said, we’ve talked about this throughout the podcast today as well, but when it comes to performance management and OKRs, they can play together. It’s just a matter of figuring out the right way to do it.

Tim Meinhardt:

Right. And I know, in closing here today, don’t make it a part of compensation. Don’t do it, okay? I’m not a believer in that at all, and I think that hopefully today people have got a good sense that scoring is as much art as it is science and that, you know, sometimes the person who’s calling the shots wants it a little more like science. Other people want it a little more about art. But let’s not argue about the fact that this helps align and focus organizations to be their best, and giving everyone the opportunity to be able to shoot for the stars, and allowing managers to be able to eliminate those obstacles as best as possible to allow their superstars and their organization to be able to do the things that they hired them for, which is to do great things, and produce great results for their organization. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

Exactly. And I think that last point, you just said was my favorite so far. Let people do what you hired them to do and give them the power to do it. So thank you so much for being on the show, Tim. It was so much fun hosting! 

Tim Meinhardt:

Hey, this is great. This was great. I have to say that I never get a chance to talk that much. And it was a delight in that, you know, I’d be very interested also if anybody has any comments about what we talked about. I’d love to know more, so reach out to us, you know, and put it at contact@atruity1.com. I’d love to know your comments. And you know, again, I think this is always open for further discussion. But I think that hopefully today we’ve cleared up a little bit about some of the misconceptions, and letting people know that there’s more rights than there are, I’ll say, than not rights in this particular area—Objectives and Key Results.

Stephanie Meinhardt:

I would agree, and as Tim said, send us a note at contact@atruity1.com. Think of it like your CFR with us—Communication, Feedback and Recognition. 

Tim Meinhardt:

I love it. I love it. 

Stephanie Meinhardt:

So we look forward to seeing you guys next episode. Thank you so much for tuning in and we’ll talk soon. 

Tim Meinhardt:

Thanks, Stephanie. Bye, everyone. 

Thanks so much for taking a few minutes to listen to our OKRs Q&A podcast. You know, OKRs provide such an excellent, agile framework which is critical for today’s business needs. It’s such a pleasure to have such wonderful people share their stories and journeys with us. Please, should you ever need assistance with your OKR journey, do not hesitate to reach out to us and contact us at www.atruity1.com, and make sure if you have a minute, to rate our show. Have a great week. Stay healthy. And of course, stay happy. Thanks, everyone.

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